Helping Victims Become Survivors 8
May 3rd, 2009 by ComputerBob
Regular readers of this Journal know that I work as a full-time volunteer at a domestic violence center and shelter, and that one of the many things that I do there is setup and configure old, donated PCs for domestic violence survivors to use in their homes.
I’ve also described how I use Linux instead of Windows on those PC, to make sure that they’re locked-down-secure.
Several weeks ago, I told you that I prefer to use Puppy Linux on those PCs because it is easier to install and configure on old hardware than any of the other Linux distros that I had tried.
But there’s more to a Linux distro than the distro itself — each distro’s community plays a vital role in providing information and support to users.
And the Puppy Linux community has a bad reputation in that regard.
For a few examples, please see:
and
Why I Haven’t Reviewed Puppy Linux
and its follow-up article,
A Death Threat From A Puppy Linux Supporter
Even knowing all of that beforehand, I still decided to give Puppy Linux a chance.
I ended up being very happy with it.
But in the past few months, I’ve seen the Puppy Linux community exhibit disturbing behaviors that make me suspect that it’s just as rabid as it had been reported to be in the past.
For example, I witnessed the current Puppy project coordinator, the current lead developer, and the entire community close ranks in the Puppy Linux forums to repeatedly spew incredible hatred at a user who runs Puppy Linux cyber-cafes, who dared to point out several bugs in the most recent Puppy release and ask when a bug-fixed version would be released.
It seems to me that the people who are in charge of Puppy Linux have incredibly big egos, but they’re so insecure that they have to continually pat themselves on the back, bully anyone who questions them, and demand fawning praise and blind subservience from everyone in the community.
Even more disturbing to me is the fact that nearly everyone appears to be happy to feed the leaders’ egos. There’s even an entire, huge thread filled with nothing but messages of praise for the current project coordinator.
The same coordinator who has repeatedly posted angry, hateful, bullying messages directed at those who he claimed had provoked him. As far as I could see, there were no provocations at all — those who he claimed had “provoked him” had simply not given him as much praise as he apparently demands from everyone.
He even started an entire thread to state that he was resigning as coordinator because someone had “threatened” him in a private forum message. Then he posted the private message for everyone to read.
I couldn’t see any threat at all in that message. It was simply some criticism of his leadership abilities. It appeared to me that the coordinator had started that thread simply to try to get everyone to feel sorry for him and to get them to stroke his ego some more. He was fishing for compliments — as though he doesn’t already get enough of them.
And he was trying to incite the whole community into hating and condemning the user who he claimed had “threatened” him.
It worked.
The Puppy community immediately circled around the abusive project coordinator, gave him plenty of sympathy for having been “threatened,” showered him with more praise, and profusely begged him to please, please stay on as the project coordinator.
Then they began to demand that the user who had “threatened” him be banned from the forums forever.
Groupthink, anyone?
One user even posted that he felt like blowing the head off of the user who had “threatened” the beloved project coordinator. Another user agreed.
Sadly, the Puppy forum moderators didn’t delete or even condemn either of those messages.
How is it that the Puppy leadership considers simple criticism to be “a threat” worthy of its own forum thread, but it doesn’t say a word when two users state that they’d like to blow the head off of another user?
Bizarro World, anyone?
One of the Puppy community’s favorite ways to try to silence any dissent is to remind everyone that Puppy Linux is not a democracy — it is a “benevolent dictatorship.” So, basically, anyone who has any concerns about bugs and missing features, or has any suggestions for how to improve Puppy, should just shut up — unless they can somehow manage to wrap their concerns and suggestions in what the powers-that-be consider to be sufficient amounts of glowing praise.
One of the final straws for me came several days ago, when the Puppy community began discussing who should be the next project coordinator, since the current one had already announced his resignation.
You guessed it — by begging and pleading, they were able to convince the current project coordinator to “reluctantly” agree to continue being a leader.
And to also be a forum moderator.
A forum moderator.
It would be sort of funny if it wasn’t so sad.
I finally decided to stop using Puppy Linux a couple of days ago, after a Puppy forum user suggested that the current project coordinator has been “too benevolent,” lately, and should start being more of a dictator.
Stockholm Syndrome, anyone?
It is my opinion that the Puppy Linux community is extremely — and possibly even dangerously — abusive and dysfunctional.
And I no longer want to be associated with it in any way.
So even though Puppy Linux may be the best choice (technologically) for me to use in my work at the DV center, I am going to try to find a different Linux distro to use in its place from now on.
UPDATE, May 4, 2009: I was not one of the users who were attacked, threatened or vilified in the Puppy Linux forums; however, that may change as more Puppy users see this Journal entry. But that doesn’t matter to me — I have no plans to return to the Puppy forums, other than to reply to a few private messages of support that I’ve received.
Permalink:
http://www.computerbob.com/wp/helping-victims-become-survivors-part-8.php
Tags:
Bugs, Consumer Info, Domestic Violence, Linux, Personal, Review, Security, Survivors, Tech Support, Windows, Work
May 4th, 2009 at 5:37 am
Not everybody involved with Puppy Linux agreed with all that was going on. In my case after the first few lines of the rants. I did not bother reading them any more. If you read Barrys blog ( the original designer of Puppy Linux) you will find he was of the same opinion and was not involved with the version that was the cause of all the disagreements.
There are many of us who just got on with using Puppy Linux and trying to improve it.
Even in your chosen line of volunteering I’m sure you come across similar types who try and distort your good work.
I think Puppy Linux is still worth the effort. Even with people doing stupid harm full things to the community!
David
)
(still using Puppy Linux
May 4th, 2009 at 6:39 am
Hello,
Thank you for your message.
I really share your feeling.
I stopped also using puppy but I still enjoy following its development.
So I still visit it. Often. With hope.
Cheers
dam
May 4th, 2009 at 6:41 am
Barry knew about the abuse and dysfunction, but he did not condemn it or demand that it stop. A few days ago, Barry asked the (abusive) current project coordinator to stay on as a leader into the future. Then Barry announced that he is pleased that the (abusive) current project coordinator has accepted the new leadership position.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
I too am disappointed by the demeaning language and glaring lack of civility recently interjected in the Puppy Linux forum by the current project coordinator and his discordant lead developer. There are many registered members of the forum (and countless non-members) who enjoy reading and learning more of this promising Linux distribution, but the derisive mentality of the vocal few has detracted greatly from this experience. The Puppy community deserves better.
May 4th, 2009 at 6:40 pm
Hello Bob…
I’m a long time Puppy user, more than 4 years now.
Because I not always agreed with the choices made for Puppy, last year I’ve created my own Pupplet, that is my main distro, customized to my own needs and thoughs. For instance, I prefer Opera rather than Seamonkey…
I followed all the discussions on the Puppy forum, and I’m not surprised by the way it goes.
Since BarryK leave Puppy to work in Woof, and 4.2 is handed to the “community” I feel lots of disagreement will arise with it.
You know what the big problem is?
At the surface, Puppy seems SO EASY that everyone *thinks* that is able to build it.
But, what BarryK made with Puppy is much more than just technical achievements… it is his wisdom in selecting the right packages and full testing the relevant bits!
And, in the case of Puppy 4.2, not only WhoDo was not the right choice for a coordinator, but some of the developers also display a very childish behavior, like Ttuuxxx. They behave like they are the owners of Puppy! So, I know that from the start 4.2 will be a problematic release!
So, I feel that in part you are right about your comments, I think you are right to “ask” for a release without some basic errors and bugs, but I also think that some of your comments and posts were not very “diplomatic”.
But life goes on, and I hope for the next release (5.0) BarryK will take the lead again and maybe correct everything.
So you should continue to use Puppy, just don’t go anymore to the forum…
Jota.
May 4th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
@Jota,
Thank you for your mostly supportive message, but you are wrong about one thing.
You wrote, So, I feel that in part you are right about your comments, I think you are right to “ask” for a release without some basic errors and bugs, but I also think that some of your comments and posts were not very ‘diplomatic’.
That tells me that you have confused me with someone else. I am not one of the Puppy forum members who asked for a bug-fixed release or who brought on the wrath of the Puppy leadership (see my UPDATE in red, posted above, early this morning). I was simply a Puppy forum member who observed many disturbingly abusive and dysfunctional behaviors happening to other members of the Puppy forums and chose to stop using Puppy Linux as a result.
May 4th, 2009 at 10:29 pm
Hi Bob,
I’ve been using Puppy for many years. Most who visit the Puppy forum finds the help they need and the vast majority of people are quite nice. Every now and then we get some folks on the forum who can’t get along. You’ll see the same kind of thing on other forums as well. Unlike many other distros, the main Puppy forum is really an unofficial forum and postings are rarely (never?) deleted even when they get ugly. Regarding the links you posted above. The first was from an upset forum member, and the other two where from Caitlin Martin, who seems to have a M.O. of bashing distros to get attention. I remember the article, I posted a friendly comment offering to help with the Toshiba laptop, (a known Xorg 7.3 problem), my comment was deleted. You can look at the current reader comments for distro watch where she is bashing Ubuntu. Anyway, sorry you had a bad experience.
May 4th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
@kirk,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, but I’m no newcomer to online forums. In fact, I’ve been online since the mid-to-late 1980s (dial-up bulletin boards).
I’ve seen plenty of bad behavior over the years, but nothing that ever came close to what I witnessed in the Puppy Linux forums in the past few months — not only from regular members, but from Puppy leadership.
P.S. I have a lot of respect for Caitlyn Martin.
May 6th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Funny how some people think pointing out bugs or performance issues is “bashing” a distro. My “M.O.” is being honest about distros rather than posting meaningless glossy fan “reviews”. I seem to be making a lot of my income from writing nowadays and I don’t need to “bash” to “get attention”. I have to write content people want to read. That claim, a repeat of the Puppy Linux’ community’s previous defense of a death threat against me, doesn’t hold water. Indeed, you write that there have been other death threats. Why am I not surprised?
Let’s look at how I bashed Ubuntu in an article last month for O’Reilly Media at: http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2009/03/a-linux-netbook-done-the-right.html
“Without any doubt Ubuntu Netbook Remix is the best implementation of Linux I’ve found on any netbook
…
Ubuntu Netbook Remix is also well configured and well stocked with the applications most users will want. While a tabbed desktop designed for the small netbook screen and for ease of use is offered by default none of the functionality of Ubuntu has been stripped out or hidden. It’s also just two clicks of the mouse to switch to a conventional desktop.”
Gee… I must really hate Ubuntu to write something like that.
FWIW, I’ve also been accused of being a blind Ubuntu fan. When I’m attacked from both sides it usually means I’ve found the middle ground. More often than not that is where the truth lies.
Bob, I’m sorry you’ve had to experience this sort of thing in the Puppy community first hand. One of the reasons I often tout Vector Linux is because of the community there. Try Vector Linux Light 6.0 as an alternative for Puppy. It might be just the ticket for you.
May 6th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
Ladies and Gentlemen, you now have a perfect example of why I have a lot of respect for Caitlyn Martin.
@Caitlyn,
I’ve never even considered Vector Linux Light before. But I certainly will now. Thanks for the tip!
May 16th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Hi Computer Bob,
Like the others have expressed, I’m truly sorry that you had to experience such horrid and completely uncivilised behaviour there at the Puppy Forum. Myself, I’ve been a member there for three years and have used Puppy for well over four years. I still do to this day - I guess you could say I’m still a “fan of the distro” but very, VERY, far from being a “fan of that forum” by any stretch of the imagination! I check back about once a week for software development rarely ever bothering with the machinations of the forum itself.
Unfortunately however, this was the one time when I did happen to have a few extra hours in my day - and yes - I hit upon that ugly thread. And it sure was that!
Life is too short - and you and I have far better things to do in this world I think, eh?
Moving along Bob: I totally agree with Caitlyn’s suggestion above. You may want to give VectorLinux Light 6.0 a very serious look-over! I have version 5.9 as the “default distro” on my computer ( the others being Mepis 8, Wolvix 2.0, and Puppy 4.2 ) and I definitely love the 5.9! The only reason why I didn’t upgrade to the newer 6.0 is due to the fact that I’ve made so many significant changes to it with various window managers and software that I’d be starting all over again and time is rather short for me at this point. So give it a spin, the 6.0, as I think you’ll become enamoured with it.
Nice website Bob. Keep up the great work you’re doing here, okie? And thank you for your time. Go in Peace my friend!
Amicalement/Cheers!
Eyes-Only
“L’Peau-Rouge”
May 16th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
@ Eyes-Only,
Thanks for your words of encouragement. Just to be clear, I did not personally experience the horrors that I described in the Puppy Linux support forums — I only reported what I witnessed happening to other folks.
I have been working on getting VectorLinux 6.0 Standard and/or Light to work on an old “problem child” Dell PC that has onboard i810 graphics. It’s been a real struggle for several days, and none of the VL graphics installation choices work on it out-of-the-box, as I’ve described in the VectorLinux forums. But I think I may have discovered a combination of installation options combined with one specific xorg.conf edit that may work on that PC — at least it appears to work for VL 6.0 Standard. I’m still testing it, before I try that same combination in VL 6.0 Light on that PC.
June 12th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
Just like in the movies, readers must know the “rating” of the forum that they join. In the case of the Murga Forum, it has become the main forum of Puppy Linux, but it lacks the full “official” status. Even the chief developer (Barry) is only a plain member of that forum.
So you can liken it to an “R rating instead of the expected “GP”, meaning, that the Forum will have a high tolerance for unusual views and behavior.
But even if a few persons may exhibit the behavior that turned you off, the (relatively) silent majority is still there helping and developing.
The same note applies to Ms. Martin’s case - you have to read the written words in a more mature context to appreciate that it was not a death threat. And even if you ignore this, the person who said it was actually/already banned from the Forum long before that exchange with Ms. Martin. So its association with the Forum was not valid.
Puppy Linux gives users a lot of autonomy in producing their own builds or remasters, so you don’t have to feel very dependent on the forum or any other Puppy Linux resource in any way.
June 12th, 2009 at 6:48 pm
@Raffy,
You’re entitled to your own opinion, but I disagree with your analysis of the situation and stand by what I’ve already written on the subject.
June 13th, 2009 at 6:40 pm
Wow! Someone must have finally told the Puppy Linux support forum about this 6-week-old Journal entry — in the past couple of days, I’ve suddenly received (and deleted) several angry, personally insulting comments from Puppy Linux support forum members, demanding that I allow them to tell “the other side of the story” here.
Give it a rest, folks — as I’ve already described, what you call “the other side of the story” has already been disgustingly expressed by the rabid mob in the Puppy Linux support forums — I see no need to allow that sort of dysfunction to spread to this site. Your behavior only reinforces what I’ve already written about you, so I’m not going to approve your rants for everyone else to read, no matter how many times you write.
June 14th, 2009 at 8:58 am
This morning, I received an email notifying me that a couple of days ago, in his blog, Puppy Linux’s creator announced that the project coordinator who I described in this Journal post has resigned — again.
And not surprisingly, there’s a new thread in the Puppy Linux support forum that already has about 75 posts, filled with the exact same manipulative narcissism and groupthink that caused me to leave Puppy Linux about six weeks ago.
There’s even a post that mentions this Journal entry, but desperately tries to minimize its validity by falsely claiming that I have demonstrated “a pattern” of criticizing several other online forums in the past.
June 15th, 2009 at 4:43 am
I was a great Puppy supporter in the past. I even a wrote a post in the forum about replacing Ubuntu with Puppy! I contributed some scripts and and how-tos to the forum.
But when BarryK announced that he was resigning from maintaining the mainstream Puppy, I thought, “OK this is the end.”
I immediately started to look for alternatives to using Puppy as my main distro. I still look at Barry’s blog and it looks like he is working on some very interesting ideas, but I haven’t been to the forum for months. The other day Barry posted that the current Puppy co-ordinator had resigned again and posted a link to the forum. I followed that link to find myself in the worst thread I have ever seen in 35 years of working in and being interested in the computer industry. I left in disgust.
I shall not be going back to using any of the existing Puppy series any time in the near future.
I do hope that Barry will have the wisdom to set up an alternative project structure for his new 5 series, otherwise, I fear, that this too, will go down the same road.
What I have recently seen on the forum very much vindicates my initial reaction to Barry’s withdrawal.
For those interested, I am now using Mandriva and find it to be very satisfactory.
December 12th, 2009 at 8:07 am
Hi Bob
I’ve only just come across a link to your site in the puppy forum, where I’ve been a regular poster for a couple of years
I’ve seen Caitlyn’s article, and emailed her as I was unable to post to her blog, but suggested burying the hatchet may be a better way forward, rather than keeping adding fuel to the fire of fury….she chooses otherwise
You seem to have been affected more by the saga between a stressed out developer and a frustrated puplet creator, both of whom had differing views and chose to call for public support in the public forum - it ain’t pretty!
I’m always amazed how people forget that the internet is not like a private room, where you can say what you like, and then forget it…..it sticks like the proverbial to the shovel….
As a rescuer by nature, surely you know that SOME of the c**p people attract to themselves is self inflicted and needs nothing other than less focussed attention, rather than more….
I will continue posting to the Puppy forum, to help maintain needed support for people, as you do.
Each to their own, don’t let the gremlins getcha!
Good Luck
Aitch